Forum Thermomix
Thermomix Recipes for TM5 and TM31 => Bread => Topic started by: meganjane on June 06, 2011, 06:02:59 am
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I've been looking at this after reading a post from cantonpixie asking for some help with bread.
The original recipe for Tang Zhong can be found here (http://wlteef.blogspot.com/2008/03/65c.html). It's a starter made from flour and water that's heated to 65c, then left to cool to room temperature before adding to the bread recipe.
I've made it today in the TMX. I cooked the starter for 5 1/2 minutes on 60/speed 3-4. I doubled the recipe from the blog and added about 90g of mixed seeds. I also used half the amount of sugar.
The only issue I had was kneading. The dough is quite sticky and the TMX started to warm to 37 after 18 minutes of kneading. Florence states on her blog that she puts her bread machine through 2 kneading cycles.
My dough is on it's first rising, but certainly doesn't look like hers does (she calls it 'membrane' stage).
She also bakes it in a covered container. This might be a good recipe for the Milk Loaf tin.
I'll be baking it in my regular tin and will post photos (if it works!)
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Good on you MJ - sometimes the only way to help people is to try it yourself so that you can provide the answers first hand. Hope it works out. :-*
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This bread was delicious!!
It rose beautifully and came out of the oven as light as a feather. No need to use Bread Improver as the starter replaces it.
This will be my standard recipe from now on. I'm going to try it with some rolls next.
Here it is:
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd167/meganskinflint/Food/d5f12668.jpg)
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This sounds exciting.
MJ you made the Tang Zhong starter and then did you just use your bread recipe or the one on the blog? I'm eager to give this a go.
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Cookie, I doubled the recipe on the blog:
Tang Zhong Starter
250ml water
50g bread flour
Place in *: and cook for 5 1/2 minutes/60/speed 4
Scrape out and place in a bowl on the bench (or fridge if you're in a hot area) to cool to room temperature.
Bread
500g bread flour (Wallaby)
160g TangZhong starter
200g water
2 tsp salt
30g sugar
2 tsp yeast
50g melted cooled butter (I just melt in the microwave)
I also added my 90g of mixed seeds
Place all in *: and mix on :: for 15 minutes.
Remove (flour hands so they don't stick to dough) and prove in a warm spot until doubled. (can allow to prove in TMX and then do next knead in TMX as well)
Knead again by hand for a few minutes and then place in bread tin in a warm spot. Cover with a billowed plastic bag. It should rise above the tin.
Bake at 220C for 25 minutes. Remove from tin and bake a further 5 - 10 minutes. Cool on a rack.
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Thanks MJ for the recipe,I have been following your topic with great interest. :-* Just another question what size bread tin do you use?
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sounds very Asian MJ, amazing how you find these things -- do you think the bread has an Eastern taste?
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I use my large tin, CC, the one I normally use for 600g flour. It's 4in x 4in x 10in.
I wouldn't say it was asian, CP63, but is a little sweeter. We liked the slight sweetness. I reduced the original amount of sugar by half, though!
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Thanks MJ. :-* :-*
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Am I missing something? :-\ I like to know what each ingredient I add to a mix contributes to the whole. However I just don't see what the purpose of this starter is; what is essentially just cooking a bit of the dough before kneading. Starters usually contain one or more yeast strains that give the dough a kick-start and add flavour. So I'd appreciate it if one of you bread officianados could enlighten me before I give this a try.
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Thanks MJ :-*
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Rogizoja, here's the explanation of how it works from the blog where I got the recipe:
What is so different about this 65°C TangZhong then?
The difference lies in the temperature of the water used. In 65°C TangZhong the flour and water mixture is cooked to 65°C. At 65°C, the gluten in the flour absorbs the moisture and become leavened. This moisture absorbed at 65°C is then mixed to the main ingredients of the bread and hence the moisture in the bread dough will be heightened. The end result will be a softer and bouncier bread.
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Okaaaay, thanks for getting back to me. Sounds a bit "black magic" to me but I'll give it a go over the weekend and see what happens. Happy TMXing.
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I made one loaf yesterday and we loved it. I have another loaf rising at the moment with a few minor changes. eg less sugar-I have only used a pinch in this loaf.
We found the texture of the bread lovely and firm.
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The second loaf was amazing. At DH's insistence I made these changes, a pinch of sugar, used EVOO instead of butter and put a little bread improver in it. We loved it. Thank you MJ, it's the new favourite-called zang zong bread! The starter makes a fantastic addition to the bread and it is so easy.
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I made this recipe yesterday, used the total amount of sugar and made it into finger buns then I later iced them....the family said they were so soft just like Bakers delight ones ( Australian bakery franchise ) Will definately use this recipe again.... I am stunned how soft and fluffy the bread was.
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Now I am confused - is this a bread or a yeast bun recipe, or either :D :D
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I tried this yesterday following meganjane's recipe - didn't have any mixed seeds so pulsed up some rolled oats. Bread rose quickly and overflowed the tin during second rising (OK have to admit I spent too long in the longed-for Saturday afternoon spa bath). Bread was nice but not as nice and fluffy as others have mentioned. Maybe over-risen or the rolled oates added something.
I wonder if it is the starter that makes it so fluffy or the extended kneading time??? I'm hoping to experiment with a tried and true recipe such as Isi's - half kneaded for usual time and half for much longer to see if it makes a difference.
It seemed to me that the dough became stickier as it kneaded - was OK after a few mins but after 15 mins of kneading was really sticky and a challenge to get out of the bowl even after rising!
If I get a chance to experiement with kneading times I'll post the outcome
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Bonsai, the next time I made it, the dough became stickier the longer it was kneaded too. I thought I'd made an error with the flour measurement!
I'd be interested to hear how your experiment goes. The thing I noticed with the bread made with this starter is that it didn't have a 'yeasty' smell at all as it got a bit older, after 3 days or so.
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MJ I'm going to try it with about 100g of rye flour today. We're really enjoying it, thanks again.
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I made a half batch with what was left of the starter, it was much stickier too.....in my case I wondered if it was that fact that the starter had been in the fridge for a day ( I did allow it to get to room temp )
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I have only been kneading mine for 10 minutes-naughty I know.
The bread with 100g rye is very nice. DH says it needs a little more liquid as it is a bit dry-which is logical. So the next batch I'll do that.
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I made the starter twice. First time with white spelt flour and second time with whole spelt flour. The result was amazing !
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I must try spelt next time. Thanks.
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Good to know that the spelt starter works well.
I haven't tried it again since my second attempt went very, very sticky and I added more flour. The loaf just wouldn't rise on the second rise. I'd put it in the fridge for the first rise overnight and it just wouldn't rise properly. I chucked it.
Must try again!
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As promised - a 'scientific' experiement with the starter and various kneading times - tried 4 different loaves:
1) no starter (added extra water and a touch more flour) knead for 5 mins
2) as above but kneaded for 15 mins
3) with starter, knead for 5 mins
4) with starter, knead for 15 mins
My 'no starter' dough seemed quite wet, and as I didn't have enough bread tins for 4 loaves I put both 'no starter' doughs on a sheet (hoping they'd pretend to be cob loaves) - they spread a lot during rising and the one that was only kneaded for 5 mins ended up more like focaccia than a loaf.
The 'starter' doughs both rose well and were more loaf shaped at the end.
As for texture? DH and I exhaustively tested all 4 loaves (with stilton cheese 8)) and agreed that the no starter 5 mins knead 'foccaccia" was quite like Turkish bread. The other 3 all had a similar crumb and quite tasty when fresh. The loaf with starter and 15 mins knead was probably the closest crumb and a bit softer than the others.
Conclusion? Not sure I've convinced myself that the starter is worth the effort, but kneading for a longer time may be worth it. As Bluesed pointed out in this thread (http://www.forumthermomix.com/index.php?topic=6488.0) kneading until the dough is really stretchy is important.
Photo shows the 'no starter' loaves at rear and 'starter' loaves at front.
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Great experiment Fiona. I kneaded my dough for the 15 minutes yesterday. I did it in 5 minute intervals to give poor Termite a tiny rest between. After trying it I have decided that the 15 minutes is the way to go. I now use 100g rye in the mix and the starter.
This is a photo of the first lot I made with no rye flour and no seeds.
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh142/birdsam/Thermomix%20recipes/P1010366.jpg)(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh142/birdsam/Thermomix%20recipes/P1010367.jpg)
I see in one of the issues of Masterchef they have a bread made with a starter that stands 12 hours. I will give it a go.
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What a superb loaf Cookie. :)
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You are really into your breadmaking Cookie, looks good. Is this your new favourite loaf?
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Are you able to post your modified ingredient list here please Cookie (with oil, extra liquid, rye flour etc)? I love rye bread. :)
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Sure Chelsea. It is a fairly light rye loaf but still yum.We just love this loaf Judy. DH says it is the best we've had yet. (until something else comes along.
My modifications are 100g rye flour and only 400g bakers' flour.
Add an extra 10g olive oil. (I use olive oil instead of the butter)
I also add bread improver (sorry :'( :'( :'()
I now knead it for the 15 minutes.
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Cookie, that sounds great.
I have just checked my yeast and it's out of date!! No wonder my loaves haven't been working lately!
So, how much oil do you use altogether in this recipe?
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That's what I was wondering MJ. An extra 10g would make it 60g? :)
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Yes, that's right.
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I made a loaf of this tonight and it is fantastic. The texture is really lovely. I used spelt so I added extra flour to compensate. I used 600g spelt flour, 100g seeds, 50g olive oil, 220g water and 20g sugar. Next time I would reduce the water rather than increasing the flour as the loaf is really tall and won't fit in the toaster :). I can't believe how quickly the dough rose with the starter. I wasn't expecting it to make such a difference. :)
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I made one today as well with new yeast this time and it was stunning! So soft inside and lovely crunchy crust.
I used the basic recipe, but oil instead of butter, still same amount and replaced 100g regular flour with 100g rye flour. I did add 1 tsp bread improver to see if it made a difference.
Next time will make with out improver as that's the purpose of this starter.
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I'll be interested in the results. We seem to eat lots of this at the moment. DH is really into it. Even DD is enjoying it and she usually steers clear of seeded bread.
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I just love this thread. When I joined the Forum , not many members were making bread. Now many are not only making bread but talking about the difference technique and ingredients make. This is SO good. There is no black magiC about this as the bread we made at the cooking school , Agrarian Kitchen, last year is very similar. It used less yeast,had a starter, rested over night and was kneaded for 20 mins. The next day. I adapted it for the THX and cut down the kneading time, to get the result that I wanted. Experiment and get the end result that You want. THis is what is fun about making bread. Cookie, your loaves look great.
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Thanks. We love your Agrarian bread too. It is so hard to know which recipe to make each time. We have bought a Sunbeam oven to take away with us so we can make our own bread on the road. I'll be testing it out next week with lots of the yummy recipes.
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Thanks. We love your Agrarian bread too. It is so hard to know which recipe to make each time. We have bought a Sunbeam oven to take away with us so we can make our own bread on the road. I'll be testing it out next week with lots of the yummy recipes.
Who will be doing the "taste testing" Cookie? I can see you running up and down your street giving out samples :D :D :D :D
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Thanks. We love your Agrarian bread too. It is so hard to know which recipe to make each time. We have bought a Sunbeam oven to take away with us so we can make our own bread on the road. I'll be testing it out next week with lots of the yummy recipes.
Who will be doing the "taste testing" Cookie? I can see you running up and down your street giving out samples :D :D :D :D
I'm happy to take time out to help with the taste testing Cookie1 ;) ;)
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We have bought a Sunbeam oven to take away with us so we can make our own bread on the road.
What about the Easycook oven?
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I don't have a lot of success with the Easycook and cakes or breads. Good Guys were having a big sale so I bought the Sunbeam. One of the ladies up at Monkey Mia did a heap of cake baking in one for our Biggest Morning Tea and they were lovely. I hope to do some cooking in it next week for some test runs.Hopefully mine will be a success too. DD has had the week off (TOIL time) and we have had fun-eating out and going out. Next week back to very strict calorie watching. :'(
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This makes a great loaf. I didn't have much in the way of grains or seeds so just went with a mix of Pepitas and Sunflower seeds. Made a half quantity of dough with the leftover starter and made 8 mini finger buns. Thanks for this recipe MJ-it's a ripper.
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Yum Jan. This bread seems able to become anything.
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VHJ, that looks great. Nice texture and look how it has risen. Wow.
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I just love the texture of this bread. A very successful batch here:
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd167/meganskinflint/Food/d1a87c72.jpg)
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It looks lovely MJ. It's a nice firm bread not all soft and silly and too hard to slice. Having said that it is a soft bread. Just delicious.
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This bread was so yummy. I used 100g of rye as well, added my seeds (seasame, black seasame, pistachio's and pine nuts). I did the 15minute (3*5minutes). My kids said it was the best bread yet. Still need to get DH to agree, but he is warming to the idea. About to make my second batch for lunch. Thanks for the recipe MeganJane.
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Perhaps leave the seeds out Sue! I find guys HATE seeds...
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For some reason they then see the bread as healthy. :D
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What gets me is DH like multigrain. I haven't added bread improver so the bread has always been heavy. This is much closer to what he's used to. Made my next batch but moved it after it's second prove and it dropped. Not as nice as the first. Not sure what cause it to sink like that.
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Sue, sounds like it was over proved.
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Thanks achookwoman. I'm still new to this bread making so I'm learning as I go along. I learn from my mistakes.
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Sue h , don't we all.
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It must have been the over proving. This time it worked like a charm and I think I have now convinced DH that we don't need to buy bread anymore. Even thought the crust was a little browner than usual, it was really soft inside.
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Well done Sue h.
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Hi...
I hv tried using your method to cook the starter, but the starter is still watery after 5 mins.... hv to increased the temperature to 70'c and cook for another 10 mins then it became less watery. I wonder is this normal?
I used the original recipe i.e 250g of high protein flour and my dough is very sticky even after 3 mins kneading in TM bowl... and the bread didnt came out soft and fluffy like what you guys have... Anyone can share more with me?
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I'm really surprised this method worked with spelt, Chelsea, as they say not to 'overknead' spelt - you're supposed to knead it less than wheat since the gluten in spelt is water soluble and easily broken down by heat and kneading, and if you overknead spelt it will flop. (Whereas wheat gluten doesn't break down in water, only relaxes in heat, and gets stronger and stretchier by kneading, hence the long kneading times to 'develop the gluten' in wheat bread.) So that's very interesting that it worked! I do find white spelt flour behaves differently than wholemeal spelt flour though - wonder if it would still work with that. Hmmm, all very interesting - guess I'll have to try this recipe now! Maybe I'll just knead it 10 mins with the spelt and see how that goes. I'm interested in trying the starter! I've been having lots of fun with artisan breads - they're my favourite - but I might try this for a change. :)
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It is amazing Jo. I wouldn't have tried it with spelt except that I saw Tebasile had great success with it. I haven't tried it with wholemeal spelt, but it would be worthwhile substituting some wholemeal flour in. My friend has been a spelt bread maker for several years and she is really loving this recipe. The only thing she doesn't like though is having to hang around the kitchen for 15 minutes while it kneads. :)
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Hi San. Do you use 250g water and 50g flour for your starter? Sometimes mine is still quite thin when I use it but the bread seems to come out fine.
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It is amazing Jo. I wouldn't have tried it with spelt except that I saw Tebasile had great success with it. I haven't tried it with wholemeal spelt, but it would be worthwhile substituting some wholemeal flour in. My friend has been a spelt bread maker for several years and she is really loving this recipe. The only thing she doesn't like though is having to hang around the kitchen for 15 minutes while it kneads. :)
Cool, I'll try it soon!! Thanks! :-*
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It is amazing Jo. I wouldn't have tried it with spelt except that I saw Tebasile had great success with it. I haven't tried it with wholemeal spelt, but it would be worthwhile substituting some wholemeal flour in. My friend has been a spelt bread maker for several years and she is really loving this recipe. The only thing she doesn't like though is having to hang around the kitchen for 15 minutes while it kneads. :)
Tell her to put her TM on the floor Chelsea ;)
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What a brilliant idea meagan, I would never have thought of doing that :P :P
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This bread is surprisingly moist after 3 days. A real bonus.
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Meagan, thanks for that. I get a book to read and put one hand (sometimes 2) on the machine while I do the knead.
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hey MJ!! i just wanted to say thanks SOOOOOOO much for trying this out!!
i havent been trawling the forum and just saw your thread!
i havent been very pleased with my other loaves so far (my entire family and friends prefer the asian-style bread which is 'cottony', 'airy' and sort of melts in your mouth , just like the tang zhong bread and they think the 'western' style bread i bake (crusty, flavorsome) is just weird.
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What a brilliant idea meagan, I would never have thought of doing that :P :P
It was actually a guest at a demo that suggested it ;) up there for thinking :-*
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Tell her to put her TM on the floor Chelsea ;)
Brilliant Meagan!! ;D
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Hey all, if I may contribute my experience with this tang Zhong bread. I have the original taiwanese cookbook which started the tangzhong craze in Asian blogosphere, and is the same book that the blog referred to by MJ references( in MJ's very first post)
For the starter, u don't have to get the 65 deg temperature really exact. I do it on the stove and follow the blog writer's advice to stir with a whisk till the whisk leaves swirl marks in the starter.
Also, i have kneaded this bread by hand and by breadmaker before and I find that one v impt thing to note is, the dough will get very sticky, wet and slimy halfway through the kneading. At this point, do not add any more flour. Just continue to knead and all of a sudden the dough will change it's texture and ball up nicely, without sticking to your hands, breadmaker or the bowl. By hand, it used to take me 45-60 min of kneading!!
Also, the original cookbook stresses that the recipe ingredient weights should be strictly stuck to.
There are specific weights described for every single ingredient.some of the recipes called for as little as 4 g yeast and 10g fats.
And I am guessing that the tm scales are not very accurate in this respect -since the tm scales are accurate only to the nearest 10g or so, many of your unsatisfactory results so far could be due to the wrong weights being used. I have had good results using a more accurate digital weighing machine that measures down to 1g , adding exactly the amounts of flour water n yeast that the cookbook calls for and taking care not to add any more flour at all during the kneading. And when I do that, the dough does develop a membrane stage just like what the cookbook says it should. I hope this helps everyone :)
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Hi Caontonpixie - do you knead it for 15 minutes in the thermomix? seems much better than 45-60 minutes by hand :o
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Hallo Bonsai
Unfortunately I haven't gotten down to trying this in the tm yet! :P I'm still trying isi's and chookie's breads !
But I do believe that if u find your dough getting wetter, stickier as the tm is kneading , u should really continue the kneading without adding anymore flour until the stickiness stops.:). That's what happens when hand kneading and breadmaker kneading as well. My breadmaker used to do this for at least 30-40 min :)
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Great idea of putting TMX on the floor, Meagan, thanks for sharing that.
cantonpixie, thanks for bringing the method to my attention!
You really must try it in the TMX. I actually left my TMX at school as we did some cooking on Friday. I ended up making the starter in the microwave and it was much, much thicker. I tested the temp with my meat thermometer and it was 65.
I had to make the dough in my KA - you think the TMX bounces around?? I had to hold it the KA the whole time even on low. The dough was really sticky, but became less so as it continued to knead.
The bread with the thicker starter turned out just the same, so I guess it doesn't matter. I'd say there's a bit more evaporation in the microwave.
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Cantonpixie I have noticed that my bread gets 'wetter' as it's kneading, but then at the end of the 15 minutes it's ok. Thanks for your information.
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hey MJ! yes i'm trying to find a spot of time this week to try the Tang Zhong bread in the TMX!
hey cookie, if it is no longer wet by 15 min then i suppose 15 min in the TMX is a good conversion from 45-60 min of hand kneading! are you able to get the membrane stage after 15 min kneading?
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I don't bother checking for 'membrane' stage and have had success every time I make it.
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Me too. I just throw it in and it seems to work.
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We tried this one today for the first time. It was fabulous - I loved the sweetness and the texture, it is very soft and cottony. Will definitely be repeating this recipe - thanks for sharing it with us.
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:) Yes! I finally managed to have a soft and cottony bread using Tang Zhong method.
I changed my flour to higher end "imported" bread flour this time and I just love this bread...
Instead of 500gram flour, I tried 350gram flour from the following recipe and will definitely add in bacan and cheese in my next trial
http://en.christinesrecipes.com/2010/03/japanese-style-bacon-and-cheese-bread.html
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I love this site. All those lovely breads to make. Thanks.
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There are some great recipes there, for sure! I've copied the Egg Tarts, the Hokkaido Milk Toast and the Japanese Style Bacon & Cheese Loaf. The Steamed Chicken & Rice looks great too.
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One of Melbourne's top Chefs is serving an Asian type bread roll with a pork filling. As we were having roast pork for dinner, so I decided to make some "Asian" rolls using the Tang Zhong recipe. Thanks MJ ;D ;D ;D I made 12 rolls and cooked them in the Muffin Top pan. I thought that they would spread more but in true Tang Zhong character they popped up. Next time I am going to sit a tray on top to get a flatter roll. Also I will brush with egg wash.
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You're a very lateral thinker Chookie.
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Thanks Cookie, just having a good fun time. :-)) :-))
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I am loving this bread. It rises so beautifully and tastes lovely. It is now our big favourite. I have reduced the olive oil to 45g (replacing the butter) and haven't noticed any change in the bread. :)
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I have had great success with this tangzhong starter, breads really turn out soft and fluffy. The results are so good the bread never lasts more than 2 days.
The first time I did this I used the Thermomix to make the starter at 70 degrees, however, it took way too long and I found it difficult to guage when it was ready. Now I make it on the stove, and it takes just 2-3 minutes.
For the dough, I kneaded for 15 miutes on the thermomix the first time, but subsequently I found that I could get just as good results with 10 minutes of kneading. I find that the longer the kneading in the Thermomix, the warmer and stickier the dough. Now, I knead all ingredients except the butter for 8 minutes, then add in the butter and knead another 2 minutes. I add the butter cold from the fridge as that helps cool the dough slightly and seems to give me a less sticky dough. Leaving the butter out in the initial kneading allows the gluten to develop better as fat interferes with gluten developent.
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Welcome to the forum thermomama
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Just seen this thread and will be on it when more unpacked.....
Hopefully next week.
Don't know how I missed this thread before?
X
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It makes a lovely bread.
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Thanks again for posting this. I keep getting asked about a soft white bread in the Thermomix and always refer friends to this post. It works every time. I now just need to be prepared and mix a 1/2 quantity of starter and once it's cooled in the bowl follow the rest of the recipe. Easy as...