Forum Thermomix
Welcoming Center, Management and General Chat => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Sim on February 16, 2010, 11:33:56 am
-
I was curious if anyone else had a strong fear of even the slightest runniest egg, especially raw?
Up until perhaps six months ago, I ate them most mornings for breakfast in my smoothies. Until I was hit with Salmonella Food Poisioning. Its not confirmed that eggs were the cause... but it seemed like the most obvious cause.
Has anyone else had negative experiences with raw eggs?
-
I had almost two months of severe salmonella poisoning after our last stay in Ethiopia, thankfully managing to avoid organ damage. I had a very rare Middle Eastern strain that was almost impossible to diagnose here in Australia and even harder to treat. The only thing that I ate that was different to my DH during the last days of our stay were my poached breakfast eggs. I try not to think about it too much now but I keep my chooks in excellent condition and use all eggs within a week. :)
-
hi i havent had salmonella poisening, but am quite paranoid about raw eggs since friends of ours got salmonella poisening at a restaurant that served home made aioli and had them sick for weeks. before that i made the tm mayo, but now i have thrown it out and am going to try an egglesss mayo recipe instead. i just dont want to risk it especially with my kids so i will avoid raw egg instead!
-
Please, folks. Don't go off the deep end about raw eggs.
It is extremely easy to pasteurize your eggs at home - pasteurized eggs are sold in various places here in the states but they are very expensive.
Some "experts" will say that eggs cannot be pasteurized at home but they have a vested interest in selling the commercially processed ones.
Shirley Corriher, food scientist and author of CookWise(1997), gave the directions of how to pasteurize eggs in that book and she also said the same thing, don't believe people when they tell you that you can't do this.
(She has a newer book out, BakeWise, published in Oct. '08 that dispels some misdirection about baking.)
I process most of my eggs this way so that I don't have to worry about them. I use them in mayonnaise, eggnog, other eggy mixtures that are not going to be cooked and I like "coddled" eggs with a very runny yolk and shirred eggs, ditto.
I may keep a few raw ones in a separate, clearly marked container, because sometimes the pasteurized eggs do not whip with quite as much volume and if I am going to be baking them in a meringue or souffle, I add one or two raw egg whites. But, whether I get my eggs from my egg man or buy them at the market, before they go into the fridge they are pasteurized so I can use them at will.
Here are the detailed instructions: http://www.ehow.com/how_4679090_pasteurize-eggs-home.html
Here's a review of CookWise, if anyone is interested: http://www.stylegourmet.com/reviews/006.htm
-
Thanks Andie, once again you have stepped up to the plate with your wealth of knowledge. Thank you for sharing it with us.
-
Thanks Andie - I don't have problems using them at home. My concern is at "parties" where people bring plates and they haven't been as scrupulous with cleanliness. Then it's not only salmonella but staph to worry about in the mayo.
-
I use raw eggs in mayonnaise, but get them from my daughter's chooks, so am not worried about bugs. Thanks andie for the great link on pasteurising eggs.
-
I spoke to the farmer of the eggs that I buy and she eats them raw all the time and has never had a problem. I think I was just unlucky. I also had pancakes from a local cafe around the time of the onset, so maybe there was some cross contamination in their kitchen. Who knows, all I know is that I never ever want it ever again. :P
Andie I am very interested in your information about pasteurising eggs. I didn't know you could do that, or even buy them for that matter. Do you do this in the TM? On the ehow.com website, it says 145-160 degrees, should I assume that that is Fahrenheit?
-
I have never given this much thought to be truthful. When I was teaching I had a couple of kids get salmonella and they were very ill. The school tuckshop got the blame both times and was temporarily closed. Neither came from there. One was from the pet rabbits the child had and the other unhygienic practice at home.
-
I'm scared to use raw eggs too. I can't handle the smell or taste of them either (not fun cleaning the eggs off our house when it got eggbombed and Dean was in India!). I never use eggwhite in the sorbet and I make the eggless aioli from the Vego Cookbook when I need mayo.
Happy Thermomixing everyone!
K3
-
I should have noted that the temps are in Fahrenheit. My Bad!
I've been doing this for so long that I have a routine and I had to stop and think and then actually go through my routine to be sure I got it right.
I use a thermometer with a "remote" probe and set the temp that I want so it will signal with that temp is reached. I prefer to set it for 145° F. = 63° C. and when the water reaches that temp and the signal sounds, I lower a colander filled with the room temperature eggs (I process a dozen at a time) into the water and set the timer for 5 minutes because my eggs vary in size and most are extra-large or jumbo.
I use the probe to test the water temp in various parts of the pot to be sure the temp remains even and at the desired point and adjust the heat if necessary. I don't worry if it is a few degrees hotter but have a pitcher of room temp water ready if it climbs past 150° F or 65.5 C.
I have the sink full of ice water in which to plunge the colander as soon as the timer sounds.
I leave the eggs in the cold water for several minutes then lift the colander out and set the eggs aside to drain and dry (mostly). I then transfer them into the egg containers I use for the farmstead ones or back into the carefully marked cartons for the store-bought ones.
Any longer than five minutes or heat higher than I use and you began to get some changes in the whites that can affect their ability to whip into full volume.
Incidentally, my hard-boiled eggs, after this process, come out perfect and free from the inner membrane, unlike just hard-boiling very fresh eggs. If you have ever tried hard-boiling fresh eggs (as around Easter, when the turnover is very high) you know that it can be rather frustrating with the shell clinging desperately to the egg and ending up with little pock marks all over it from fingernails.
I prefer to hard-boil very fresh eggs because they have a nicer shape, without the air pocked distorting them at the big end.
I checked with the only store that still carries pasteurized eggs and their current price is $4.35 a dozen. This is more than twice the price of the premium extra-large eggs at my local grocery.
This routine has become so second nature to me that I don't really think that much about it. When visitors see me go through it, they are occasionally mystified but the explanation is sufficient for some of them to begin using it. One of my neighbors said she hadn't had homemade eggnog for twenty years because she was afraid to use raw eggs and hated the store-bought, much too sweet, stuff.
I think that was two years ago and since then she has followed my routine. She had a broken jaw last spring (one of her horses reared up and struck her with a hoof) and had her jaw wired for six weeks. She practically lived on eggnog as she is one of those high-energy persons who consumes lots of calories and is still skinny.
As Martha Stewart says, "It's a GOOD thing!"
-
I've never had any problems with raw eggs and salmonella scares are not really a topic over here in Germany (putrid doner meat, artificial cheese are more common problems). OK, I wouldn't serve a potato salad with real egg mayonnaise at a barbecue in the height of summer ;) but I'm not really that cautious. Touch wood.
While I was in Budapest last summer I watched a cookery programme in which Hungary's favourite cook (whose name I have unfortunately forgotten, but she was really good, even though I understand about 10 Hungarian words) made an egg mayonnaise with a little boy who dipped his finger into the raw eggs and tasted them. "It's OK," she said, "these eggs are pasteurised." I didn't know until then that there was such a thing.
Are eggs cooled in supermarkets where you live? Here in Germany they aren't.
-
Yes. At least in California. Eggs have to be transported in coolers and in regular markets must be in refrigerated cases, usually the open ones but some stores have closed cases.
The only exceptions are the open-air farmer's markets but they also are regularly inspected and can have only one carton of each size or type they are selling, out on the table for display only and sell the ones that are kept in a cooler.
California has very strict rules and regulations, more than any other state. Fruits and vegetables (fresh) purchased in other states cannot be brought into the state and anyone driving into the state is stopped and questioned and if they admit to having any the items are seized unless they can be identified as grown in California.
-
Our eggs are just on the shelves in supermarkets too vivacity, not in the fridge section. Mind you, sometimes I think it is like stepping into a fridge when you go into some supermarkets here. They have the a/c on so cold.
-
The critical temperature for any eggs that may be infected with salmonella is between 40 degrees F. (4.44 C.) and 140 degrees F. (60 C) and time is another factor. The longer the eggs are in this danger zone, the more the bacteria multiply. The egg interior is an ideal growth medium for bacteria. This is the reason eggs are used to grow vaccines.
I have friends who are food fanatics and will eat only fertilized eggs because they have the idea that the presence of an embryo, no matter how minute, is an indication that the egg is free of any pathogens. Anyone who has raised chickens knows this is totally untrue but my friends are city folk who have never been closer to a farm than driving by on the interstate.
I think I mentioned earlier that I love eggs. I eat a lot in all their various guises. I love omelets in the French style, that is, very, very soft. Restaurants in this state will not prepare them that way because they are afraid of being sued. I seldom order omelets in a restaurant. I hate the rubbery things that could double as a floor mat. >:(
-
My DD was extremely sick with Salmonella 2 years ago and was hospitalised for 2 weeks. She was infected during a kids cooking class which was held as part of the Melbourne Food and Wine festival. The classes were held by a husband and wife team of well known chefs and they cooked chicken, salad and chocolate mousse, they had followed strict hygiene standards so it was quite a surprise to find the problem had come from this source. The culprit was originally thought to be the raw chicken but after much investigation it was found to be the free range eggs used in the chocolate mousse which had been purchased at the farmers market held at the venue of the cooking classes earlier that day, and more specifically they found the bacteria was actually present on the shells not the interior of the eggs. When dealing with the government department responsible for the investigation they said that while this was a known issue world wide and is of particular concern with free range eggs and had resulted in a virtual holt to the free range egg industry in the UK, it is not well understood by the general public. My DD had a severe reaction as she had cracked all the eggs for the chocolate mousse, but over half the participants were affected in some way.
My DD is still very wary of eating eggs that haven't been cooked fully so this might be a way to get over that fear.
-
It must of been pretty bad! Has she recovered ok? Meaning, how is her digestive system?
My partner and I haven't quite recovered yet, and we got it back in early November 09. He can't drink beer anymore without getting sick, he is quite devastated to say the least. We are working towards better health though, fingers crossed.
Even though I do believe that the home pasteurising method would work, the fear is still very strong! I don't think I'll eat them just yet. It may seem silly to some, but, I just can't bring myself to do it. I'll be braver when I feel better... lol.
-
omg another thing to worry about!!!!! sometimes ignorance is bliss as they say! :)
-
The culprit was originally thought to be the raw chicken but after much investigation it was found to be the free range eggs used in the chocolate mousse which had been purchased at the farmers market held at the venue of the cooking classes earlier that day, and more specifically they found the bacteria was actually present on the shells not the interior of the eggs. When dealing with the government department responsible for the investigation they said that while this was a known issue world wide and is of particular concern with free range eggs and had resulted in a virtual holt to the free range egg industry in the UK, it is not well understood by the general public.
What is it about free range eggs that differ from barn/battery eggs? Do I need to start shutting my chooks up? :)
-
Our eggs over here are in the refrigerator section at the supermarket. Sort of near the milk usually. Although I have seen a couple of supermarkets that don't refrigerate them in the winter months.
-
I'm not an expert on eggs,( although i have kept chooks for over 30 years). I think when caged hens lay eggs, the eggs, roll away immediately. When free range chooks lay, they lay in a nest and may contaminate the eggs with poo or other farm yard matter, It is not good to wash the dirt off eggs as this can contaminate the eggs. I have kept my eggs in the fridge for 10 weeks, and they still seem to be fresher than those bought from the super market. Eggs in Victoria, mostly are unrefrigerated.
-
It is not good to wash the dirt off eggs as this can contaminate the eggs.
This thread is making me a bit paranoid and tonight I scrubbed my eggs until they were spotless before I boiled them. Whoops!!!
-
Chelsea, I try and collect the eggs every day, if the nest is dirty I pull out the rice hulls ( this is what we have on the floor and in the nest boxes), and put in clean rice hulls. If any of the eggs are dirty, I do wash them in warm water with a couple of drops of detergent, (not too much as it might perfume the eggs.). I just dip them into the water and then dry them with a cloth. I refrigerate them immediately. I have never had a problem. The mayo recipe is the only one i use that has raw eggs in it. All the eggs we use are cooked, either in cakes or boiled . I have given a lot of eggs away , over the years and no one has had a problem. I think that the problem with washing the eggs is if you use hot water. But I am not sure on this point.
-
Frankly, I would love to see the data that proves this home pasteurization method works. I'm not one to buy in on something just because someone tells me it's so. As a biologist, I rely on this.
It is easy to kill viruses with heat, but not bacteria.
I do know that commercial pasteurization of in shell eggs works, because I have seen the data. And I know that the method is a good bit different than the one you describe. I would like to know the internal temperature the center of the yolk reaches. How does time differ depending on the size of the egg? Has this been tested on inocculated eggs? What level of reduction is achieved? I would not trust anything less than 4 log. Commercial pasteurization exceeds 5 log reduction.
Please consider learning more from the "expert" scientists at the FSIS, who have no vested interest in selling anything. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Focus_On_Shell_Eggs/index.asp
-
I have a recipe literally translated as Hygiene approved Mayo, will post it for you all, at least NO samonella!
-
Okay, forget everything I wrote earlier. I've only been pasteurizing raw milk for my cheesemaking for about forty years and have been pasteurizing my own eggs for almost as long.
Since the USDA has been extremely lax in keeping up to date on investigations of possible contamination of food processing facilities, until something bad happens, I take with a grain of salt many of their notices.
There have been many instances of the USDA turning a blind eye to blatant violations by big agribusiness and yet coming down hard on small producers that eventually had to sell out - to, guess who? Big agribusiness companies.
And as an example, there is this: http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Jolley--USA-Today-Takes-USDA-Today-To-The-Wood-Shed/2009-12-03/Article.aspx?oid=963859&fid=CN-LATEST_NEWS_
You mentioned viruses.
There are many heat-resistant viruses - we have a nasty one here in California known as the Hantavirus and the foot-and-mouth disease virus that wrecked havoc not too many years ago is heat-resistant as are strains of bovine parvovirus. The common herpes simplex virus is also heat-resistant and there have been incidences of hepatitis-B virus resistant to heat shock.
Here in the US it is estimated, from extensive testing, that one in 20,000 eggs has salmonella inside the YOLK due to a "battery" chicken with infected ovaries. In other countries the incidence is far less and in free-range chickens it is virtually non-existent.
One in 200 commercial eggs has salmonella on the shell AFTER WASHING and it is these eggs that the home pasteurizing renders safe and the same goes for free-range eggs or eggs from farmer's markets.
This form of pasteurization will not totally remove all possibility of salmonella but rendering the bacteria on the surface of the egg incapable of cell division makes them much safer than when just off the shelf or out of the nest.
The commercial process is designed to kill salmonella in the egg yolk and the equipment handles thousands of eggs at a time. I've seen it in use and I have also seen the equipment that irradiates eggs and egg products in use during a tour of a facility in Bakersfield, CA.
The total output of that facility goes to the commercial baking industry, not to consumers.
-
One in 20,000 is the stat you get from the American Egg Board, who have a vested interest in selling eggs. The FSIS reports the incidence to be one in 3,600.
Pasteurizing milk is not hard. My family pasteurized milk from their cows, too. It can easily be tested. Pasteurizing an egg in the shell is a different story.
I would be very interested in seeing the data on free-range chickens and salmonella in the U.S. I have searched long and hard but have yet to come up with anything but opinion. I did find a study from Teheran.
Killing bacteria on the shell of an egg is not the same as pasteurizing an egg, and it should not be presented as such. Doing so could cause someone irreparable harm.
-
I don't want to argue with you, I will do what works for me.
Do what you think is best for you and the rest of the forum members should do the same.
Because I do not trust the USDA's information because of past performance (and their vested interest in many ag enterprises - the milk powder debacle in '07 is just one) I will continue to follow the advice of food scientists such as Shirley Corriher, Harold McGee and others who have practical experience as well as scientific.
This is my final post on this subject. At age 70 I've not lost any of my intelligence or my common sense and I have learned that it is a waste of time to carry on a pointless discussion.
-
If there were data to back up these claims, then there is no argument. That is the great thing about science.
I'm sorry you feel this is pointless. The problem here is that this bad advice can make someone very sick.
-
Chelsea, I try and collect the eggs every day, if the nest is dirty I pull out the rice hulls ( this is what we have on the floor and in the nest boxes), and put in clean rice hulls. If any of the eggs are dirty, I do wash them in warm water with a couple of drops of detergent, (not too much as it might perfume the eggs.). I just dip them into the water and then dry them with a cloth. I refrigerate them immediately. I have never had a problem. The mayo recipe is the only one i use that has raw eggs in it. All the eggs we use are cooked, either in cakes or boiled . I have given a lot of eggs away , over the years and no one has had a problem. I think that the problem with washing the eggs is if you use hot water. But I am not sure on this point.
Thanks "Chookie" ;)!!! It's always good to know what others do with their eggs and chooks. :)
-
Oh Golly Andie! Sorry if I caused an argument by bringing up the dreaded Salmonella subject! I should have kept my big mouth shut!
-
Eggs dont actually worry me that much. I usually have one carton in the pantry for baking and mayo and one in the fridge as backup. In food safety training we are told anything that contains the "bad" foods which includes eggs need to be stored below 5 deg or heated above 60 degrees to kill any salmonella. So if you store your mayo etc below 5 deg then it should be ok.
We are exposed to all sorts bacteria everywhere which is not a bad thing and actually helps most of the time unless we are already immuno comprimised for some reason.
Its happened several times now when my hubby has had food poisoning but we have all eaten the same foods and the rest of us are fine.
-
Oh Golly Andie! Sorry if I caused an argument by bringing up the dreaded Salmonella subject! I should have kept my big mouth shut!
Don't worry about it. It doesn't bother me, I love a bit of good verbal sparring, but see no need to clutter up this forum with endless back-and-forth posts that really have little effect. I'm not going to change my mind and it is obvious my opinion is being challenged and I simply don't care.
I do find it interesting that there is such reliance on the USDA and FSIS when both entities totally missed the boat and ignored warnings about the peanut butter plant last year that caused much sickness and several deaths.
I also think it is ironic that the USDA and the FDA continue to not only allow but actually encourage dairy farmers in the US to use the bovine growth hormone that increases milk production when there is a huge surplus of milk. This is especially difficult to understand because rBGH has been outlawed in every other dairy-producing country in the world! Canada does not allow the importation of milk or milk products unless it can be certified free of rBGH.
There have been numerous independent studies, some ongoing, that show there can be long-term problems to humans from this stuff (including childhood obesity) but USDA reports their findings (studies underwritten by Monsanto, who makes millions off the stuff) "do not bear out these results."
-
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this lively debate. I think this voicing of opinions /facts it is a very healthy process and has given me lots to consider.
At the end of the day, we all have to decide as individuals what we will do for our families and live with whatever consequences, and I appreciate all this information.
-
well this is a somewhat timely thread as i just saw this on the Perth Now news site.....i think i will be staying away from raw eggs!!!!
MORE than 20 people have suffered food poisoning and many others are at risk, amid revelations that an iconic Perth pub is at the centre of a salmonella outbreak from suspect eggs.
At least 23 people are known to have contracted gastroenteritis after buying meals with an egg-based aoli dipping sauce at East Fremantle's Left Bank hotel in late January.
Health authorities are investigating two other Perth restaurants for similar egg-related salmonella outbreaks, and the number of people affected could be much higher.
-
Must say that I have not had any experience, but I cannot see why you could not pasteurise eggs at home without cooking them if they can do it commercially. As Andie says, Harold McGee explains the method and it is all about timing and temperature.
I know that I had read somewhere ages ago that the vinegar was suposed to reduce the numbers of bugs in the yolks, but can't remember where I saw it - so it may not be true.
-
I've herd that too Thermomixer - but it was to do with adding vinegar to a meat marinde for BBQ - suppose to kill some 'bugs'.
but USDA reports their findings (studies underwritten by Monsanto, who makes millions off the stuff) "do not bear out these results."
MONSANTO!! That's a whole other soap box - They are EVIL, evil!!! :-)) ;)
-
but USDA reports their findings (studies underwritten by Monsanto, who makes millions off the stuff) "do not bear out these results."
MONSANTO!! That's a whole other soap box - They are EVIL, evil!!! :-)) ;)
My sentiments exactly! Far too often the USDA seems to turn a blind eye to big business misdeeds but crunch heavily on small independent businesses and farmers. I don't believe much of anything in any of their bulletins. Too many have been proved inaccurate and at times, designed to mislead consumers.
Here's a particularly egregious example for those of us who rely on organic foods actually being organic.
An article published in December 2008
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kerry-trueman/lets-ask-marion-are-the-u_b_153831.html
Note the third paragraph.
The USDA has been a direct cause of the undermining of reliance on the organic certification.
I've been involved in breeding and showing dogs almost all of my life and my grandfather did before me. I love dogs and believe they should always be treated humanely. Unfortunately some people regard them as only a commodity.
For almost fifty years I have been supporting legislation to stop the puppy farms (mostly in the midwest) and it seems that every time a municipality or a state enacts a law designed to curtail these people, the USDA, who is charged with inspecting such places, they being instead to try to undermine these laws and the result is that puppy mills are as active as ever. Now we are going after retail businesses. If pet shops can't sell puppy mill dogs, then there will be no demand.
-
MONSANTO!! That's a whole other soap box - They are EVIL, evil!!! :-)) ;)
[/quote]
Ooh I really have to agree with that statement. Especially with their GM stuff.
-
Yeah everything from GM to Nutri-sweet and lots in between- Evil I say!! Sorry I've got off topic! I was not the least bit scared of eggs until I read this thread - now I'll really think twice before adding eggs to the kids smoothy in the morning! :-))
-
Yeah everything from GM to Nutri-sweet and lots in between- Evil I say!! Sorry I've got off topic! I was not the least bit scared of eggs until I read this thread - now I'll really think twice before adding eggs to the kids smoothy in the morning! :-))
You can beat them separately, heat them until the mixture reaches 65 C., which is over the temp needed to kill salmonella but not high enough to cook them, then add them to the smoothies.
You can even do it ahead of time and refrigerate the mixture. Use an instant read thermometer to check the temp throughout the mixture.
-
That sounds easy enough! ;)
-
What an interesting thread. Thank you everyone for your honesty.
After reading the likes of Michael Pollan's 'In Defence of Food' etc, I hard it hard to believe many of the studies that are published due to alterier motives. Did anyone watch The Office on the ABC. I only caught one episode where the goverment were to change policies on children's foods in the interest of childrens health. Due to all the major industries being major sponsors of the political parties, the government didn't have anywhere to move had to do an about face and not change anything..... although it's "fiction" I believe there is a good serving of fact in there too.
As to raw egg, I don't like it just for the texture. I make the egg mayo and never had any problems. Personally I cook egg till it's "dehydrated" as XH used to tell me and "rubbery" too. But that's just a texture thing. And I'm never able to add a raw egg to a smoothie in fear that I'll feel that 'slimy' texture YUK! ;) :D
Thanks Andi for some very interesting information. You really are an amazing source of information. :-*