Forum Thermomix
Questions Doubts and Requests => Questions? Technical Issues? The Survival Guide => Topic started by: huilink on November 19, 2009, 03:45:43 pm
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I have difficulty converting recipes for baking bread in bread machines. When it says 'knead for 20 mins' in the machine, how many Thermomix kneading is that equivalent to?
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no bread expert here but i wouldn't knead longer than the usual 2 minutes i think
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I haven't used a bread machine, but I've tried a few Thermomix recipes. They all seem to knead for approx 2-3 minutes.
I'd try kneading for 3 minutes and see how the dough "feels". Does it feel like your bread machine dough? You might not have felt it...maybe make a loaf in your bread machine to dough stage and feel it, and then try to reproduce the texture in Thermomix.
I made the buttermilk bread from EDC yesterday and it's beautiful. Very fluffy, not too dense, but very filling. I find that 1 slice is plenty, instead of 2 slices of bought bread.
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Yes as the gals said I've found all my doughs and pastries need 2-3 minutes. I use to use my bread maker every single day - and it has not been touched since Thermie arrived! I didn't bother converting the recipe I used though cause I thought the doughs in the EDC worked out really well. :)
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I agree with all that has been said. I've just tried recipes and fooled around with kneading time and rising time until I've got what suits us. eg The 5 seed bread I now knead for 4 minutes and allow to rise slowly until it is to the top of the tins I use. That works out exzactly how we like it. This has taken about 7 or 8 attempts with rising and kneading times.
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Hola, buenas tardas (??) and welcome back stranger.
I would knead for maybe 2 and 1/2 to 3 minutes - I prefer a bit of extra kneading and sometimes leave it in the bowl and knead another 2 minutes after 10-15 minutes. Just helps develop the gluten and make the dough stretch more and be better able to hold up after rising.
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Unfortunately I think bread machines are abominations. They are a miniature version of the "Chorleywood" process that makes bread from the English speaking world an embarrassment. Steamed loaves - yuk. I think 2 minutes, 3 at the most, in the thermomix is enough. Mill your own grain, let it rise twice. No added 'bread improvers' that are added to bread machine pre-mixes. Look at the frightening list of chemicals which make it rise to unrealistic heights. To paraphrase the prophet Isaiah, and channelling Elizabeth David: "Why pay for that which is not bread?"
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Hear hear Paul! Sounds very good! Have never even seen a breadmaker so can't comment personally, but Natural wins processed ALWAYS!
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I think that there are probably different types of machines. In my bread maker I don't use premixes and I still make lovely loaves each and every time. For my standard loaf I use freshly milled grain, organic unbleached strong flour, local organic extra virgin olive oil, unrefined sea salt, organic dulse flakes (seaweed), filtered water, yeast and a little organic rapadura sugar. I love both my TMX and bread maker for making bread - my bread maker wins on days when we are heading out for the morning though and want fresh bread waiting for us at lunchtime.
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Have to have my say on this one! I think my bread machine is fantastic, wouldn't be without it. Haven't bought a "store" loaf for a couple of years now and still use it every day. Thermomix is great if you've got time to hang around for the proving etc. or for some of the speciality breads but the bread machine wins hands down for my standard loaf and for convenience - bung everything in (all natural ingredients here, no premixes at all), set the timer and wake to the smell of fresh-baked bread; wonderful. Now if Vorwerk could just figure out how to add a time delay function to the Thermomix.........!
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I've got a breadmaker (which I haven't used for about 4 years), and have found that its so noisy waking me up in the middle of the night as it goes throught the various processes. I like the TM dough, and really we can have a couple of "knock downs" of the dough or longer proving times because I am otherwise busy, but I haven't found the bread is any worse for this.
(Welcome back Paul - your standard loaf is my fave to date. I hope you had a lovely time overseas)
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Thanks for all the comments, it's an interesting area. If anyone has the chance to read "English Breast and Yeast Cookery" by Elizabeth David, you can read all about the downhill process of English (and by extension, Australian and US bread). Breadmakers are just a home version of the industrial process. You'll get a better result from not using a premix, but your square loaf will still be steamed, not baked. All shop bought bread (including hot bread shops) us the same process. This is why the bread is as light as a feather. Whenever they advertise for jobs in Baker's Delight, they say "No experience necessary". Isn't that a horrifying thought? It's interesting that Bron, in Spain, has never seen a bread machine. I suspect they don't make them for the European market, because they have a culture of making beautiful bread by natural processes. We have lost that in the English speaking world. And trying to butter this type of bread is like trying to butter a damp blanket - know what I mean?
Now I'll whinge about margarine. A new supermarket opened up near us and the aisle previously known as "Butter" is now called "Margarine". We have totally fallen for the idea that margarine is healthier. It isn't. It's a fat, it has trans fatty acids in it, the 'lite' version contains mostly water, it's been through about a million processes to remove the smells and dyed to change the colour, and most objectionably of all, it tastes bad!
I've found making bread with the thermomix very helpful because I can mill my own grain, the machine's action heats the water so I don't have to use a thermometer, the initial kneading saves time, and I can then hand knead it for the second rise. It's the hand kneading and shaping, using the sweat and heat of your hands that makes the bread good. A bread machine can't do that.
I don't mean to upset anyone but I get angry with shortcuts and fakery in food in Australia. Even the UK has a much wider choice of product than we do, because Coles and Woolworths don't know anything about fresh, non-processed ingredients.
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I've got a breadmaker (which I haven't used for about 4 years), and have found that its so noisy waking me up in the middle of the night as it goes throught the various processes. I like the TM dough, and really we can have a couple of "knock downs" of the dough or longer proving times because I am otherwise busy, but I haven't found the bread is any worse for this.
(Welcome back Paul - your standard loaf is my fave to date. I hope you had a lovely time overseas)
Thanks CP, it was lovely, and sadly using the last of the Cypriot olive oil today. I'm going to make my loaf in a new way today. I think the small loaf tin will fit into the Romertopf casserole with enough room to rise and not hit the top, so I'm hoping the steamy atmosphere will generate a great loaf!
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I certainly agree that Coles and Woolworths stock very little fresh or unprocessed ingredients.
With regard to the industrialisation of the bread-making process I would have to agree with that also. I guess the question is how far do you go? Many dietitians and nutritionists throughout the world argue that the seven day fermentation process used by Ethiopians in the preparation of injera bread is the only way in which humans should prepare and consume grain (which was not part of our evolutionary diet). Unless there is some fermentation (and pre-digestion) of grain we are not able to gain valuable nutrients from it anyway. During our travels through Ethiopia we have learned how to make injera (a teff-based pancake bread that is the basis of the Ethiopian diet) and the process hasn't changed in thousands of years. Ultimately I guess it depends on which theory you subscribe to and what you are actually able to do. My teff supply has run out from our last trip to Ethiopia and I'm not able to import it so I am back to normal bread (in limited quantities- particularly for our Oziopian son). :)
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Chelsea what a lovely word-Oziopian.
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I certainly agree that Coles and Woolworths stock very little fresh or unprocessed ingredients.
With regard to the industrialisation of the bread-making process I would have to agree with that also. I guess the question is how far do you go? Many dietitians and nutritionists throughout the world argue that the seven day fermentation process used by Ethiopians in the preparation of injera bread is the only way in which humans should prepare and consume grain (which was not part of our evolutionary diet). Unless there is some fermentation (and pre-digestion) of grain we are not able to gain valuable nutrients from it anyway. During our travels through Ethiopia we have learned how to make injera (a teff-based pancake bread that is the basis of the Ethiopian diet) and the process hasn't changed in thousands of years. Ultimately I guess it depends on which theory you subscribe to and what you are actually able to do. My teff supply has run out from our last trip to Ethiopia and I'm not able to import it so I am back to normal bread (in limited quantities- particularly for our Oziopian son). :)
That is very interesting Chelsea. I sometimes wonder if gluten enteropathy arises from modern fermentation processes. Personally, as well as tasting better, bread that has risen at least twice is easier to digest.
Up here in Cairns, a lot of fresh produce is grown on the Atherton tablelands. It gets sent to Brisbane or Townsville, and then gets sent back here to the supermarkets because in the words of some head honcho from Woolies "Supermarkets don't know how to handle fresh food". How bad is that? In the UK, the better supermarkets were proudly advertising local produce - fresh food all from within 50km. We're just too accepting over here, and most people don't know how to cook and they eat processed food.
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.... If anyone has the chance to read "English Breast and Yeast Cookery" by Elizabeth David, you can read all about the downhill process of ......
Paul, if I didn't know you better then I would be thinking you have more than Bread on your mind !!
Still haven't bought Breast and Yeast Cookery, but believe there is a copy at the Books for Cooks store in Fitzroy. Have to check it out. Is there a centre spread ? ??? Hopefully it's butter! ;)
Can't believe that they are so far behind with the pros and cons of butter and marg !!
We are lucky, there are market gardens nearby so often the supermarket will have bins of very fresh produce - often with mud still on it. The local greengrocer's produce often looks very much inferior. We still can't grow enough - my broad beans were hopeless. Sorry, off on a tangent.
Back to poor Huilink, who is doing the right thing and converting from Bread Machine to TMX bread. Yes, a few minutes is ample.
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.... If anyone has the chance to read "English Breast and Yeast Cookery" by Elizabeth David, you can read all about the downhill process of ......
Paul, if I didn't know you better then I would be thinking you have more than Bread on your mind !!
Still haven't bought Breast and Yeast Cookery, but believe there is a copy at the Books for Cooks store in Fitzroy. Have to check it out. Is there a centre spread ? ??? Hopefully it's butter! ;)
Can't believe that they are so far behind with the pros and cons of butter and marg !!
We are lucky, there are market gardens nearby so often the supermarket will have bins of very fresh produce - often with mud still on it. The local greengrocer's produce often looks very much inferior. We still can't grow enough - my broad beans were hopeless. Sorry, off on a tangent.
Back to poor Huilink, who is doing the right thing and converting from Bread Machine to TMX bread. Yes, a few minutes is ample.
Oops. That'll teach me to check everything. We have Rusty's markets here in Cairns, which are great, but Qld is not big on greengrocers.
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We have Rusty's markets here in Cairns, which are great, but Qld is not big on greengrocers.
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Gosh Rusty's is still going?? I remember going to the market at 6am on the morning of my wedding (19 yrs ago) to stock up on fruit (we were married at 8:30am in the Botanical Gardens) as well as my grandparents going there for most of my childhood! Been about 6 years since I visited my parents.. and it was the lack of greengrocers there that was the problem! :-\
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We have Rusty's markets here in Cairns, which are great, but Qld is not big on greengrocers.
Gosh Rusty's is still going?? I remember going to the market at 6am on the morning of my wedding (19 yrs ago) to stock up on fruit (we were married at 8:30am in the Botanical Gardens) as well as my grandparents going there for most of my childhood! Been about 6 years since I visited my parents.. and it was the lack of greengrocers there that was the problem! :-\
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Hi Ceejay, still there, different premises. There's a greengrocer of sorts at Festy Fair (now called Raintrees) an the only real one is Edge Hill. Not like Melbourne where ever shop strip and mall has several. Thank goodness for Rusty's. The other towns up the Qld coast don't have anything, I think
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Too true Paul. There is a Green Grocer outside Woollies at Smithfield who is trying hard to get lots of fresh fruit and veggies from the Tablelands. Very keen prices. I find some of the things at Rustys just don't last well as they set it up on Thursday but you can't buy until Friday. In the heat it is not a good thing. Also they spray the herbs constantly with warm water. Edge Hill is the best but excy.
Gretchen
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You are right Gert, I don't often go to Smithfield but that is a good shop with local produce.